Wednesday, December 3, 2008

Is Jesus Worship Idolatry?

In life, one is faced with complex questions - be it earthly or spiritually. There is one topic that I have particular exception with, but I rarely openly discus... until now.

Jesus Worship

Does Modern Christianity have it all wrong?

The question stems from a recent discussion between a reader/blogger and myself - but I have had this very discussion with friends, family, acquaintances, and even sidewalk evangelicals... And it ultimately stems from the belief that Jesus is God - and anyone who does not accept Jesus as God is therefore forsaken.

I challenge that Jesus (Yashuah), himself, would reject such an idea - and would reject worship to him.

NOTE: Anyone who comments on this post - I ask that you start by stating your religious preference (church) to allow context of comments. (this is a KTRACY.COM rule)

John, in Rev 19:10, made the mistake of worshipping an angel of the Holy Spirit. The angel's response: "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship YHWH! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." The angels revelation to John states that to follow Jesus' testimony is to worship YHWH (not Jesus - simply follow in his teachings).

Jesus himself rejected worship of anyone besides YHWH, when Satan (a spiritual son of YHWH – as we are all his children) wished to be worshipped – Matthew 4:10, Luke 4:8 – “Worship and serve our Father YHWH only “. Jesus claimed before the Priests that he was the Son of YHWH, not God Himself…(Matthew 26:64). As well, the testimony of Christ to the rich man indicated that there is only One who is good, Father YHWH, and you shall follow his commandments (Matthew 19:17).

Based on these teachings, the words of Christ himself, I find it peculiar that modern Christianity (let’s say Catholicism) prays to Saints, sets up shrine to oil stains resembling the Virgin Mother or the Messiah, and humbles themselves before engraved images of the Christ on the Cross… This is in direct contradiction to the commandments, which in Exodus 20:3-5 state that there shall be no God before YHWH, and that no engraved images of shall be made of anything on earth or in heaven, and we shall not bow down and worship those images… AND, Jesus, when asked about the most important Commandment stated in Mark 12:29 “People of Israel, you have only one Lord and God

The stipulation, as I indicated above, is that Modern Christianity observes Jesus and God as One through the Holy Spirit. This is what I have conflict with (as with the worshipping of engraved images). In accepting Jesus as a teacher and prophet, it does not mean that I am rejecting him as Savior – more accurately I follow his teachings of praise to YHWH, and rejecting praise to others within the Holy Spirit… Does accepting Jesus as Saviour necessitate that I accept Jesus as God? The answer is NO. It has to be no. Jesus himself clarified that there is one God, Father YHWH, and that all praise belongs to Him... even after the resurrection, Jesus was conducting the Will of God - and as indicated by Jesus, he would take seat at the right hand of God - not that he was God.

We are all free to worship as we interpret. This blog post is a call for discussion on the fundamentals of Christianity, and how modern Christians understand the belief that Jesus is God when Jesus himself denied this charge.

Personally, I have accepted the teachings of Yashuah as the Word of YHWH, that he is the Saviour of men through his sacrifice in that he taught the world the Love of YHWH... but I refuse to worship anyone but YHWH. Halleluyah - live in praise to YHWH.


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  2. Oh, Steven, you are wrong on so many levels.

    Jesus is YWWH. That is the judgment of the Christian Church from the get-go. It is the clear declaration of Holy Scripture; it is the clear declaration of Holy Tradition.

    You have asked us to declare our tradition: mine is that of "Catholic" or "Orthodox" Christianity: non-Protestant; non-sectarian; non-cultic. It is from my church's matrix that the canonical scriptures emerged; it is my chuch which stands as the official custodian and interpreter of those books. Jesus is Yahweh, and the judgments of outsiders are of no-account. You seek a discussion, but there is none to be had, really.

    Having declared my tradition, I now enjoin you to declare yours. JW?

    S. Jones

  3. Snaggle-Tooth stole much of my thunder. I am not a "Catholic" or "Orthodox" Christian, and I don't believe that any church "stands as the official custodian and interpreter of" the Scriptures. I attend a Baptist church and subscribe to the Protestant tradition of Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide. But I am quite comfortable in joining Snaggle-Tooth in accepting the long-held Nicene Creed: "I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

    "And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made."

    I can only add to the previous comment. A clear reading of the Gospel of John or the Epistle of Colossians, as two examples only, speak clearly to the deity of Jesus Christ. He did in fact claim to be God - and as such, forces honest observers to apply C.S. Lewis' test of "Liar, Lunatic, or Lord".

    Will you declare your religious / faith tradition?

  4. Well... I honestly cannot comprehend how a heart that has the Spirit of God in it in salvation could not realize that Jesus is God.

    However, I mean, did you ever try to worship Jesus and see how it felt inside??

    I do know that there are some born-again Christians who are "Jesus Only"... and I think they're doctrine is "messed up"... but they're still saved.

    So, please allow me to retract any personal judgment... cuz, maybe there's something between you and God I just don't know.


    (But Jesus is God. :) )


  5. Steven,

    I think I could see how maybe you could be saved and see it different. I never used to believe that. I never believed a saved person could "miss" that Jesus is God and see anything any other way than the Trinity.

    Then, I read this work by a man who I don't even recall. I sincerely believed he was saved and born-again of God. But he had a unique view. I read it. My eyes crossed... and either he was right or he wasn't but he had a view of God the Father and the relationship between the Father and the Son in a way that was really not blasphemous as far as I could tell... but I just had to shake my head. :)

    These "Jesus only" people... they're saved a lot of them are... and they focussed on one thing to the exclusion of another.

    They went the opposite way that you have... and I just think that I don't want to tell a brother in the Lord he's not saved... if he's saved and just has a unique view.

    I'm stepping on back. :)

    Grace to you.

    Love in Christ,


  6. Greetings Steven M Nielson

    Excellent post!!!

    "Modern" Christianity
    (as opposed to "Biblical" Christianity)
    have indeed got it all wrong! :-(

    BTW I am Christian and like you I worship YHWH alone AS ALMIGHTY GOD

    In Scripture, Yeshua identified his Father
    as the only true GOD;
    [John 17.3]
    and taught that his Father seeks true worshipers to worship Him in spirit & in truth.
    [John 4.22-24]

    Nonetheless, seeing that Yeshua is
    the Messiah, the Son of GOD,
    the King of Israel

    [Matt 16.16, John 1.49];
    due honor & homage ought to be rendered to him;
    as shown in the NT.
    Hence the kings of the east came to pay homage & give due obeisance to him.
    (Sadly, the KJV translators translated the Greek word proskuneo in all the examples of this obeisance rightly given to Yeshua,
    as "worship";
    hence the confusion.

    Fro more info, see
    The Worship of Christ

    Steven, I also think that you will find this video enlightening:
    The Human Jesus

    Yours In Messiah
    Adam Pastor

  7. Steven, if my post came across as a little terse, I apologize. It's just that this is an open-and-shut case for me, and while (without providing details) I am very able to engage you on both exegetical and theological levels concerning this question, I really am tempted to beg off. First of all, blog comments boxes aren't the best venue for extended exchanges such as would naturally have to occur here. But secondly, I really suspect that it would be a colossal waste of my time, as I'm sure you hold your views just as passionately as I hold mine. I don't want to debate the deity of Christ just for the sake of debating it. For me as a "catholic" sort of Christian, it has already been debated and decided ecclesially. If I were to nevertheless engage someone in a debate, well, been there, done that; I am quite familiar with the arguments against the deity of Christ and how to counter them. (Ben has given you a little hint of how that would go in his post above.) But I'm just wary of getting into such a discussion these days except with those whom I sense want to know for "existential" reasons. I'd rather simply stand shoulder to shoulder with you on the important cultural and political issues on which we agree.

    Make sense, bro?

  8. Let me start by declaring my faith - As a child, I attended Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, and Latter Day churches/services. I was baptized as an infant, saved as a youth. My unique perspective into many ways of worship as a child opened a question as to Truth - all of these churches and ways to practice declared to be the only way. I questioned my faith at 12 upon the untimely death of my Grandmother - who was the most spiritual person I knew at the time. I buried my childhood bible with her and was determined to find the truth. Upon meditation/prayer while on a trip in the woods, I opened my heart and soul to YHWH and asked for a sign that I was not alone, and for guidance for the truth - basically, "God, do you exist, I need a sign". I received my sign when my exact request was granted immediately - a miracle. My entire body/heart/soul was overwhelmed with emotion - Love, Fear, Excitement, Humility... I began with that as my basis for truth - YHWH existed and had a plan for each of us. It was after this experience that I truly began my quest for the truth – common truths across all religions, churches. I procured a new bible to continue my own personal scripture studies. This is where the LDS church came into play (my Father’s father and family are LDS). I attended the LDS services in order to question their beliefs in search of common truths. After the LDS church, I returned to a series of Protestant services in search of the same answers. At 18 I began attending Catholic Mass and questioning the Fathers during confession, attempting to find similarities for the one truth. From there, I found the House of Yahweh (some call it a cult, I am not so fast to label). Their main teaching is the importance of name, which is why I am uncomfortable calling YHWH “God”, rather Father YHWH, Father Creator, etc. After reading the teachings of the HoY, I returned to private scripture study to better understand the multitude of differing teachings (scripture study of course involves intense mediation and prayer). In my early 20’s I became an “Online Reverend” through the Universal Life Church, which holds no belief other than that there is a Universal Truth… call it a gimmick – I revere it as nothing more than a legal title allowing me to marry friends or family per state statutes. My travels brought me to a close personal relationship with a Holy Sikh at age 24. In my discussion with him over two years, I had a great opportunity to challenge his beliefs while defending Christian beliefs (as I have come to understand them) – which allowed me a great opportunity to juxtapose the Sikh belief of retaining or banking Spiritual Wealth through prayer for the self versus the Christian belief of Spiritual Wealth through prayer for others. But even in the complex debates regarding our two faiths, I was looking for common truths. During the same period I began researching Buddhism and other pre-Christian beliefs, such as Judaism (Old Testament truths)… always in the search for common truths. At the age of 25, I was asked to lead a funeral service for my best friend’s father, whom I considered like a father myself. At this time, I prayed and mediated on the Word, the Truth, and received the Wisdom within myself to find the words needed to help our family and friends heal, a Wisdom which was backed up by what I considered signs that the Holy Spirit was in my words. This aided in my understanding of the personal relationship, through mediation, with Father YHWH. After this, I took a spiritual journey through Death Valley, where I mediated on the importance of humility in separation of the self from the ego in order to emulate and better understand the teachings of Christ the Messiah. During my journey, I received what I believe to be another sign – a rainbow cloud on a cloudless day (known also as a circumhorizontal arc or a fire rainbow) in the middle of the desert – I had never seen or known of this phenomenon before this day. But, again, it filled my heart and soul with joy and emotion indescribable. I continue my search for truth, following the teachings of Christ, the truths constant to spirituality, and the faith in the things which have filled my heart (in accordance with Hebrews 11). I belong to no church, as I have yet to find one operating in accordance with Christ’s teachings – upholding the commandments as set forth by YHWH to Moses. The plan for me on this earth is to find the truth, for myself, for someone else – who knows… but it drives me to ask questions, meditate, and pray on the Wisdom and the Word.

    Now to address some issues –

    Jonesie – you suggest that there is no discussion to be had. I argue that just as Jesus preached, he also answered the questions of the Pharisees and the Sadducees, indicating that if anyone should have a question of faith, one who can answer, should. There is always discussion… especially when it regards the truth of Jesus’ teachings, and Christian tradition in it’s wake. Also, you indicate that it is the judgment of the church (Catholic) which indicates that Jesus is YHWH… but is it the teaching of Jesus that he was YHWH? This brings into question that Jesus claimed to be God, as Ben suggested – Jesus stated that He is in the Father, and the Father in Him – indicating that he was full of the Holy Spirit, and thus spoke for God, not necessarily that he WAS God… (though I am glad to see you two finally agreeing on SOMETHING)

    Putting aside my query into “is Jesus YHWH” - the ultimate question of “Jesus Worship” that I contest is the idolatry of tradition – in praying before crucified Christ, building shrines to engraved images, etc… This is the first obstacle I see in modern Christian tradition, as opposed to Christ’s actual teachings – he himself stating that the first two commandments were the most important (the second including engraved images – of ANYTHING on earth or in heaven – including Christ in any form). Now I wear two crosses around my neck, as a symbol, not as an object of worship – the cross not being an engraved image (as opposed to a crucifix with Jesus affixed). Therefore I beg the question – is modern Christianity engaging in acts in violation of the commandments, and thus idolatry?

    Once that question is answered, we can discuss if Jesus is YHWH, or if there are other hints (like Rev 19:10) that indicate that the Son is not necessarily the Father, rather of the same Spirit – or perhaps that all things in heaven are YHWH, so in resurrection the spirit of Jesus became one with YHWH – which would still indicate YHWH worship (per Jesus’ teachings)…

  9. Adam - thanks for the reply. Your support is exactly the evidence that I point to in questioning - a mistranslation changing the intent of Jesus' teachings... and I agree that Jesus deserves homage in all respects - but worship! I will look into your links shortly.

    Jonesie - not terse at all... religion is a topic that I rarely tred, and often do so lightly for blatantly obvious reasons - however, it is important to be able to discuss YHWH amongst friends and foes alike! I understand the reasoning of not wanting to debate, but discussion should always be an option (in person or on blogs - some venues are better than others)

    I think that we can clearly stand shoulder to shoulder on many issues - but it should never be out of place to question anything.

  10. I think that we can clearly stand shoulder to shoulder on many issues - but it should never be out of place to question anything.

    Nevertheless, I'm going to bow out for the reasons given previously. I'm pretty much through with "apologetics", having been involved in an apologetics ministry in the 80s and having debated many atheists, New Agers, various and sundry "cultists", and even orthodox Christians of various confessions. (When I was an evangelical Protestant, I debated Catholics and Orthodox. Having moved to their side of the the aisle in later years, I of course debated evangelical Protestants. So, you're simply going to have to trust me when I say that your observations re:, e.g., images aren't particularly challenging to me. I spent several years on R.C. Sproul's now defunct "Renewing Your Mind" discussion board refuting such challenges.)

    Like I said, however, these days I generally don't engage in theological debate for the purpose of theological debate. I now reserve those discussions for people who are looking for answers for existential reasons. However, it sounds to me like you're quite happy in your skin, spiritually speaking, so I strongly suspect that I am not about to convince you with my arguments for the deity of Christ. I therefore don't think anything profitable would result from the discussion you seek.

  11. Jonesie - understood, and respected. As always, appreciate your candor and readership!

  12. My dear Steven,Congratulation for seeking the truth about Almighty God the Creator.Believe me it won't be easy and you wilxperiences the difficulties experience by Abraham, Moses and Jesus ( peace be upon them).

    Let me share the stories of Jesus messenger in the Quran.

    He Shall Speak to the People in Childhood and in Maturity

    Qur'an 3:45-51 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)
    Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ (Maseeh) Jesus the son of Mary held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
    "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity and he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
    She said: "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth; when He hath decreed a plan He but saith to it 'Be' and it is!
    "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom the Law and the Gospel.
    "And (appoint him) an Apostle to the Children of Israel (with this message): I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I make for you out of clay as it were the figure of a bird and breathe into it and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave; and I heal those born blind and the lepers and I quicken the dead by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe.
    "(I have come to you) to attest the Law which was before me and to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah and obey me.
    "It is Allah who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a way that is straight."

    Mary, the Daughter of 'Imran, Guarded Her Chastity

    Qur'an 66:11-12 Surah At-Tahrim (Banning)
    And Allah sets forth as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: "O my Lord! build for me in nearness to Thee a mansion in the Garden and save me from Pharaoh and his doings and save me from those that do wrong";
    And Mary the daughter of 'Imran who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into her (body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations and was one of the devout (Servants).

    The Similitude of Jesus Before Allah Is as That of Adam...."Be" and He Was

    Qur'an 3:59-63 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)
    This similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam: He created him from dust then said to him: "Be" and he was.
    The truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt.
    If anyone disputes in this matter with thee now after (full) knowledge hath come to thee say: "Come! let us gather together our sons and your sons our women and your women ourselves and yourselves: then let us earnestly pray and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!"
    This is the true account: there is no god except Allah; and Allah He is indeed the Exalted in Power the Wise.
    But if they turn back Allah hath full knowledge of those who do mischief.

    Allah Too Planned and the Best of Planners Is Allah

    Qur'an 3:52-58 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)
    When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said: "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the Disciples: "We are Allah's helpers we believe in Allah and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
    "Our Lord! we believe in what thou hast revealed and we follow the Apostle; then write us down among those who bear witness."
    And (then unbelievers) plotted and planned and Allah too planned and the best of planners is Allah.
    Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith to the Day of Resurrection; then shall ye all return unto Me and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
    "As to those who reject faith I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter nor will they have anyone to help.
    "As to those who believe and work righteousness Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong.
    "This is what We rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."

    They Killed Him Not Nor Crucified Him

    Qur'an 4:155-159 Surah An-Nisaa (The Women)
    (They have incurred divine displeasure): in that they broke their Covenant: that they rejected the Signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; we need no more)"; nay Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy and little is it they believe.
    That they rejected faith: that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge.
    That they said (in boast) "We killed Christ (Maseeh) Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah"; but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not.
    Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise.
    And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them.

    Jesus Shall Be a Sign for the Coming of the Hour of Judgment

    Qur'an 43:57-67 Surah Az-Zukhruf (Gold Adornments)
    When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example behold thy people raise a clamor thereat (in ridicule)!
    And they say " Are Our gods best or He?" This they set forth to thee only by way of disputation: yea they are a contentious people.
    He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favor to him and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.
    And if it were Our Will We could make angels from amongst you succeeding each other on the earth.
    And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour) but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.
    Let not the Evil One hinder you: for he is to you an enemy avowed.
    When Jesus came with Clear Signs he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.
    "For Allah; He is my Lord and your Lord: so worship ye Him: this is a Straight Way."
    But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement: then woe to the wrongdoers from the Penalty of a Grievous Day!
    Do they only wait for the Hour that it should come on them all of a sudden while they perceive not?
    Friends on that Day will be foes one to another except the Righteous.

    O Allah Our Lord! Send Us from Heaven a Table Set

    Qur'an 5:112-115 Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)
    Behold! the disciples said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah if ye have faith."
    They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle.
    Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! send us from heaven a table set (with viands) that there may be for us for the first and the last of us a solemn festival and a sign from Thee; and provide for our sustenance for Thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs).
    Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: but if any of you after that resisteth faith I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on anyone among all the peoples.

    Who Will Be My Helpers to the Work of Allah? Said the Disciples...

    Qur'an 61:14 Surah As-Saff (The Ranks)
    O ye who believe! be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the Disciples "We are Allah's helpers!" Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed and a portion disbelieved: but We gave power to those who believed against their enemies and they became the ones that prevailed.

    Apostles Who Gave Good News as Well as Warning

    Qur'an 4:163-170 Surah An-Nisaa (The Women)
    We have sent thee (O Muhammad) inspiration as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him; We sent inspiration to Abraham Ismail Isaac Jacob and the Tribes to Jesus Job Jonah Aaron and Solomon and to David We gave the Psalms.
    Of some Apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not; and to Moses Allah spoke direct.
    Apostles who gave good news as well as warning that mankind after (the coming) of the Apostles should have no plea against Allah: for Allah is Exalted in Power Wise.
    But Allah beareth witness that what He hath sent unto thee He hath sent from His (Own) Knowledge and the angels bear witness: but enough is Allah for a Witness.
    Those who reject faith and keep off (men) from the way of Allah have verily strayed far far away from the path.
    Those who reject faith and do wrong Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way.
    Except the way of Hell to dwell therein for ever: and this to Allah is easy.
    O mankind! the Apostle hath come to you in truth from Allah: believe in him: it is best for you. But if ye reject faith to Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.

    No Difference Between One and Another of the Prophets of Allah

    Qur'an 2:135-141 Surah Al-Baqarah (The Heifer)
    They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (to salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the religion of Abraham the true and he joined not gods with Allah."
    Say ye: "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham Isma'il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
    So if they believe as ye believe they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as against them and He is the All-Hearing the All-Knowing.
    (Our religion is) the baptism of Allah; and who can baptize better than Allah? and it is He whom we worship.
    Say: Will ye dispute with us about Allah seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that we are sincere (in our faith) in Him?
    Or do ye say that Abraham Isma'il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah? But Allah is not unmindful of what ye do!
    That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case.

    The Same Religion as That Enjoined on Noah

    Qur'an 42:12-14 Surah As-Shuraa (The Consultation)
    To Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth: He enlarges and restricts the Sustenance to whom He will: for He knows full well all things.
    The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah--the which We have sent by inspiration to thee--and that which We enjoined on Abraham Moses and Jesus: Namely that ye should remain steadfast in Religion and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
    And they became divided only after knowledge reached them through selfish envy as between themselves. Had it not been for a Word that went forth before from thy Lord (tending) to a Term appointed the matter would have been settled between them: but truly those who have inherited the Book after them are in suspicious (disquieting) doubt concerning it.

    Allah Sent down Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) Before the Qur'an

    Qur'an 3:1-6 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)
    Allah! there is no god but He the Living the Self-Subsisting Eternal.
    It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step) in truth the Book confirming what went before it; and He sent down Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this as a guide to mankind and He sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
    Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of Allah will suffer the severest penalty and Allah is Exalted in Might Lord of Retribution.
    From Allah verily nothing is hidden on earth or in the heavens.
    He it is Who shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no god but He the Exalted in Might the Wise.

    Allah Sent Jesus the Son of Mary Confirming the Law, Sent Him the Gospel

    Qur'an 5:45-47 Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)
    We ordained therein for them: "Life for life eye for eye nose for nose ear for ear tooth for tooth and wounds equal for equal." But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed they are (no better than) wrong-doers.
    And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary confirming the law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light and confirmation of the law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
    Let the people of the Gospel Judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed they are (no better than) those who rebel.

    Clear Signs To Jesus the Son of Mary

    Qur'an 2:253 Surah Al-Baqarah (The Heifer)
    Those apostles We endowed with gifts some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. If Allah had so willed succeeding generations would not have fought among each other after clear (Signs) had come to them but they (chose) to wrangle some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed they would not have fought each other; but Allah fulfilleth His plan.

    Glad Tidings of an Apostle to Come after Me Whose Name Shall Be Ahmad

    Qur'an 61:6-9 Surah As-Saff (The Ranks)
    And remember Jesus the son of Mary said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you confirming the Law (which came) before me and giving glad Tidings of an Apostle to come after me whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs they said "This is evident sorcery!"
    Who doth greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against Allah even as he is being invited to Islam? And Allah guides not those who do wrong.
    Their intention is to extinguish Allah's Light (by blowing) with their mouths: but Allah will complete (the revelation of) His Light even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
    It is He Who has sent His Apostle with Guidance and the Religion of Truth that he may proclaim it over all religion even though the Pagans may detest (it).

    Some Apostles You Called Impostors and Others You Slay

    Qur'an 2:87-88 Surah Al-Baqarah (The Heifer)
    We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an Apostle with what ye yourselves desire not ye are puffed up with pride? Some ye called impostors and others ye slay!
    They say "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's word we need no more)." Nay Allah's curse is on them for their blasphemy; little is it they believe.

    Prophets Zakariya, John, Jesus and Elias: All in the Ranks of the Righteous

    Qur'an 6:83-89 Surah An-An'am (The Cattle)
    That was the reasoning about Us which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people: We raise whom We will degree after degree: for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge.
    We gave him Isaac and Jacob: all (three) We guided: and before him We guided Noah and before him We guided Noah and among his progeny David Solomon Job Joseph Moses and Aaron: thus do We reward those who do good:
    And Zakariya and John and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous:
    And Ismail and Elisha and Jonas and Lot: and to all We gave favor above the nations:
    (To them) and to their fathers and progeny and brethren: We chose them. And We guided them to a straight way.
    This is the guidance of Allah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth of His worshippers. If they were to join other gods with Him all that they did would be vain for them.
    These were the men to whom We gave the Book and authority and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new People who reject them not.

    Glory to Thee! Never Could I Say What I Had No Right to Say

    Qur'an 5:116-120 Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)
    And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men 'worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
    "Never said I to them anything except what Thou didst command me to say to wit 'Worship Allah my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things.
    "If Thou dost punish them they are Thy servants: if Thou dost forgive them Thou art the Exalted the Wise.
    Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens with rivers flowing beneath their eternal home: Allah well-pleased with them and they with Allah: that is the great Salvation (the fulfillment of all desires).
    To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein and it is He who hath power over all things.

    Say Not "Trinity": Desist: it Will Be Better for You: for Allah Is One Allah

    Qur'an 4:171-173 Surah An-Nisaa (The Women)
    O people of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth. Christ (Maseeh) Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an Apostle of Allah and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Apostles. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One Allah: glory be to him: (for Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
    Christ (Maseeh) disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah nor do the angels those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant He will gather them all together unto himself to (answer).
    But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness He will give their (due) rewards and more out of His bounty: but those who are disdainful and arrogant He will punish with a grievous penalty; nor will they find besides Allah any to protect or help them.

    They Do Blaspheme Who Say: "Allah Is Christ the Son of Mary"...

    Qur'an 5:72-77 Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)
    They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ (Maseeh): "O children of Israel! worship Allah my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah Allah will forbid him the garden and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
    They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy) verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
    Why turn they not to Allah and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.
    Christ (Maseeh) the son of Mary was no more than an Apostle; many were the Apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth makes His Signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
    Say: Will ye worship besides Allah something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."
    Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper) trespassing beyond the truth nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by who misled many and strayed (themselves) from the even way.

    Priests and Anchorites to Be Their Lords in Derogation of Allah

    Qur'an 9:30-35 Surah At-Tauba (Repentance)
    The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth!
    They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; Yet they were commanded to worship but one Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to him: (far is He) from having the parents they associate (with him).
    Fain would they extinguish Allah's light with their mouths but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected even though the unbelievers may detest (it).
    It is He who hath sent His apostle with guidance and religion of truth to proclaim it over all religions even though the pagans may detest (it).
    O ye who believe! there are indeed many among the priests and anchorites who in falsehood devour the substance of men and hinder (them) from the way of Allah. And there are those who bury gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah: announce unto them a most grievous penalty.
    On the day when heat will be produced out of that (wealth) in the fire of hell and with it will be branded their foreheads their flanks and their backs "this is the (treasure) which ye buried for yourselves: taste ye then the (treasures) ye buried!"

    Christ Does Not Disdain to Serve and Worship Allah

    Qur'an 4:172-173 Surah An-Nisaa (The Women)
    Christ (Maseeh) disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah nor do the angels those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant He will gather them all together unto himself to (answer).
    But those who believe and do deeds of righteousness He will give their (due) rewards and more out of His bounty: but those who are disdainful and arrogant He will punish with a grievous penalty; nor will they find besides Allah any to protect or help them.

    If Anyone Desires a Religion Other than Islam It Will Never Be Accepted

    Qur'an 3:83-86 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)
    Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah? While all creatures in the heavens and on earth have willing or unwilling bowed to His Will (accepted Islam) and to Him shall they all be brought back.
    Say: "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham Isma'il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
    If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
    How shall Allah guide those who reject faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Apostle was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But Allah guides not a people unjust.

    More in the E-book

    Allah: Allah is the proper name in Arabic for The One and Only God, The Creator and Sustainer of the universe. It is used by the Arab Christians and Jews for the God ('Eloh-im' in Hebrew; 'Allaha' in Aramaic, the mother tongue of Jesus). The word Allah does not have a plural or gender. Allah does not have any associate or partner, and He does not beget nor was He begotten. SWT is an abbreviation of Arabic words that mean 'Glory Be To Him.'

    s or pbuh: Peace Be Upon Him. This expression is used for all Prophets of Allah.

    Those who wish to understand the specific and broader meaning of the verses of the Qur'an, it is recommended that they should also read commentary on these subjects and verses. The English readers will find either Yusuf Ali's or Maududi's commentaries a good source. Allama Yususf Ali presents the meaning Ayah (verse) by Ayah with detailed footnotes for relevant words in each verse and includes a detailed index of the topics mentioned in the Qur'an. Maulana Maududi's work covers commentary for each Surah (chapter) of the Holy Qur'an.


  13. Hi Steven,

    I answered you on my Safety of Secession thread. I still feel comfortable with you thus far. I have no idea of whether you are a born-again Christian or not. :)

    There's nothing wrong with seeking Truth. When you seek God with all your heart - you will find Him.

    I believe I have the systematic theology you are looking for.

    In your defense, there is a reason why you question, imo... because God the Son said He did not know the day or the hour of His return, but only the Father in Heaven knew. God the Father is perfectly omniscient. God the Son is not.

    Also, God the Father is Greater than God the Son. At the very end, all will be made subject to Jesus Christ, then God the Son will hand the Kingdom over to God the Father.

    Steven, truly it is not "idolatry" to worship God the Son. But, you are right that within the Trinity... the Father is Greater.

    That is why it seems to me that a true born-again Christian who questions as you do would see that there is more there than less deep thinking and questioning Christians would see.

    Maybe you will see something more than others see because you question.


    But I still believe if you worship Jesus... you will see and learn something spiritually... as you did in that forest that day... so long as the true Holy Spirit is in you.

    Even if you joined a cult that truly was a cult, that doesn't mean, to me, you are not saved.

    I will say this of myself. I attended a Baptist church growing up.

    I did as you, Steven, and travelled to many, many churches seeing who had "the truth"... because I was more powerfully curious than most. And I've come, though it sounds like boasting - sorry if that's true, to come to know more truth.

    God is Sovereign.

    Some say that and it's just a word. To me, it's become living reality in the knowledge of my own heart spiritually. Why?? Because I did not stop questioning until I myself could know... that truth.

    God bless you on your search. :)


  14. P.S. I stuck to the Christian churches... always knew Buddha was still in the grave. ;)

    I should have been more clear. Went to different denominations... not outside Christianity as I went to different churches just to "taste and see" and learn what it is they doctrinally believed and how much of the "face of Christ" they had conceived.


  15. Have you my cousins forgotten our ancestors ways before the white missionary's forced them to believe in the Christian God? Beat them into submission? All People were "made" to believe in this. Only a few of us hold true to our traditions and from what I have read here too many of you still hold on to the white man's beliefs and not our own. Pity.

  16. I seek TRUTH, also.

  17. I wrote a book called Who is God? by Batya Shemesh. Check it out on Amazon. I give answers to all the above responses. We have a special chapter called Who is the Messiah? Everything that I say is backed up by the Old Testament. I deal with very hard questions that people ask about God. Check it out on Amazon the "look inside" gives you a good idea of what it's all about.
    Batya Shemesh